Curse

kostolomac · Jun 15, 2008, 03:44 PM // 15:44

I agree with wazz. I (a begginer here) stood for hours in ToA just trying to get some info besides wiki and cookie cutter builds , however i get laughed at , and the fact that I don't play the holy trinity or imbagon made the search for groups even harder.
Also , getting help from an veteran is less likely to happen than getting a cristalyne in Kourna.
Now 2 cookie cutter builds replaced all other , to me that's good.
If I had a choice between standing in a outpost praying for a group without class discrimination , and abandoning my class for an hour or two to finish the job , I would choose the second.

pumpkin pie · Jun 15, 2008, 04:01 PM // 16:01

I am in agreement with wazz,

i agree with most of what you said except I don't use Ursan or PvE skill, cos I don't like them.

Kostolomac, most players are evil/ignorant/impatient (take your pick lol), you are a beginner, I already play for 31 months people still discriminated against my newly created survivor necromancer who do not have elite skills yet, cos I choose not to capture any yet until she successfully complete the survivor rank 3)

Player: Ping bar please
Me: ping
Player: Sorry, NO.
*kick*
then player advertise again: Fast mission group, lf players with elite skills....

I proceed on my own to complete the mission (Naphui Quarters) and got myself the master rewards without heros, hench only also without elite skills :P lol

PS: i remember it was a Slayer of All 10 player lolololo too.

RotteN · Jun 15, 2008, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

sidenote: if anet wouldn't buff the monsters to a zillion health, but would give them PVP worthy skillbars, then even less people would be able to do the area without PVE skills...

Ok Ok I have nowhere near the knowledge to know this...
but according to me monsters with alot of health just take long to kill, monsters with PVP worthy skillbars would take even longer and assumably give WAAAY more trouble then the "buffed" ones.

Not exactly, as long as you don't overdo it and chose wisely in which skills to give to the foes. Yes, AI is superior in interupting, ... which could be a pain, unless you limit the amount of interupts you give them.

Of course you'll have to bring more to the fight than just some tanking ability and pure DPS (preferably AOE) for the rest. Mesmers or rangers could actually go and shut certain foes down while the rest kills off others.

Would it be harder ? not realy, at least not any harder than DoA without PvE skills/consumables.

Would it require more skill / gameplay knowledge ? Yes, of course it would, but then again no one is holding anyone back to learn to play better in PvE.

Turtle222 · Jun 15, 2008, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

I listened to Obama and Hillary speeches as well, but, I'm still gonna vote for McCain....so what's your point? lol Anet can read and even acknowledge any post it doesn't mean they are going to change their position because of it though.

you want another bush?

on topic

To be honest not many are looking at the majority. The majority still enjoy the game immensly. unfortunately, high-end gaming requires them to have to have that dreaded skill Ursan.

zwei2stein · Jun 15, 2008, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

Ugh so what if it would be our fault ?

depends on who is "We".

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

What if anet kept on making the game harder and harder for the veterans (look at DOA).

But it didn't do it the way that veterans wanted.

Veterans wanted smarter mobs. Mobs with smater skillsets (and secondaries). Random spawns. Puzzle-like patrolls.

Not imba buffed mobs.

If it was done the smart way, everyone could stand chance as they could set foothold in area without wiping on first mob.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

Of course the "new" people don't stand a change. They have nowhere near enough knowledge to tackle DOA, but at the other hand they can enter DOA. (so what I'm saying is: they completed NF, so they have the "right" to do the area(well according to anet at least, why else would they make it a requirement to have completed NF first ?))

Shouldn't we help them, instead of letting them die out there ?

I mean, the area is that hard due to US. The smallest thing we can do is help em... they have as much right to do the area as we do.

If we would help them, they would at least stand a chance.

The only thing that is helping the "new people" is guildwiki and PVXwiki.

If someone asks for help to you what do you ?
a. redirect him/her to guildwiki (I'm guilty to this one, and i think most people here are)
b. actually help him/her

What do they learn from guildwiki:
-which tricks they can use to win (taking path Y avoids mobs , if you kill monster X first mob Z wont show up etc etc)
- what skillbars they can use

But will they now understand HOW to play GW ?
According to me they don't.
They don't learn WHY they are using those skills.
At best they know in witch order to push the numbers.

There are a lot of problems.

You need newbie smart enough to listen to you. Then you need him to be able to cooperate.

That is insanely hard.

First, people who don't have much experience, they can finish NF with trash builds and trash tactics. Stuff that "Works". Chancing to new stuff is scary. I have seen it tons of times. Even smallest requests to skillbar changes are at best ignored.

Then, they likely met semi-bad player who showed them ropes and froze their progress by making stupid but very beliveable statements (monk shall have only healing or prot and such.). Advice that was good asnd worked well at L10 is bad at elite areas. And don;t get me started about refuting bad wiki information. You just cant compete with that authority, result is that you are labeled as noob and not listened to.

Some very good advice goes against common sense. They might get to think that YOU are bad player. There is very little you can do after they decite that.

Sure, I possibly could make 7 perceptive, smart and willing newbies to use good builds and tactics and beat DoA. I have done similar things, but i had authority to begin with.

It is just not worth it with random people. Damaged nerves, and psychical trauma ... its just too much to handle and still have fun. And people dont like being comanded much. So its not fun for newbies to listen to some random bossy person either.

Bryant Again · Jun 15, 2008, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

Problem is,... it is called PVE skills. Like it or not it was anet only chance to make everyone happy.

They could've made the Normal modes of the elite areas easier. This would not only provide them access to the area but to prepare them for the real deal in Hard Mode. The fact that they made HM easier shows that their not catering to the "woeful pugger" but more to an annoying, whiny, "gimme it nao" crowd.

Nightow · Jun 15, 2008, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

They could've made the Normal modes of the elite areas easier.

Lack of resources I think is to blame for that. From what I've read on Regina's wiki talk page, it sounds like they barely have enough as it is.

manitoba1073 · Jun 15, 2008, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Actually, you are by the majority of the community. Go to wherether and you'll see more "Ursanway r10 only" PuGs around. You need to grind a bit more to get r3 in all of the titles, same for r5 for armour and all of the skills' power, you need to grind in order to get this.

No, you are not forced, but you are limited to guildies and H/H if you choose not to grind Norn rank, but the point is that there is still alot of grind in the game.

Yet the game itself isnt the one making the grind, Thats a whole different issue and its been ingame since shortly after the start of the game. Players making a force on grind to be in there groups to be a certain rank or even a certain class are plain and simple retarded always have been and always will be. That is where the beginning of the nerfing started the push towards a 1 type of trinity play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

We already trashed the "don't like it, don't use it" argument into oblivion.

And your point. I didnt say that. See above. However since you didnt really thrash it at all it stands as a truth. You may not like it but it is in fact a truth.
Unless your gonna try to claim someone is holding a gun to your head to play a certain way.

DreamWind · Jun 15, 2008, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

And your point. I didnt say that. See above. However since you didnt really thrash it...

Hold it right there. Yes that argument was thrashed. Continue thread.

Tyla · Jun 15, 2008, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Yet the game itself isnt the one making the grind, Thats a whole different issue and its been ingame since shortly after the start of the game. Players making a force on grind to be in there groups to be a certain rank or even a certain class are plain and simple retarded always have been and always will be. That is where the beginning of the nerfing started the push towards a 1 type of trinity play.

If it wasn't for the optional grind in the game, enhancing the power of these skills we wouldn't be having this problem. Tell me, in what online game will people not use the higher ranks of a title that enhances a skill to their advantage? Not even me or anyone else. Why? Because you want the best of the best.

The players decide on what they want in their groups, but you could actually find people who didn't run Ursan and will accept a balanced gameplay then.

I would rather have trinityway, as there are enough variables for it, PvE skills or not. At least that build is around many skills and not 9.

And stop with the DLDU stuff. It ruins the thread further.

the_jos · Jun 15, 2008, 06:01 PM // 18:01

I do agree with zwei2stein's posting, while I still understand why wazz made his comment.

You need a group who respect your authority or is willing to take a risk when introducing a 'new' kind of play.
That won't happen very often in PUG groups.
They know failure and PUG seems to be about avoiding failure as much as possible.

Then there is the problem that you can give someone a build but they might not be able to play it.
Back to my GvG days, it would take a couple of practice rounds to master a new build.
When the entire team build was new it was not only learning to play the build, but also learning to play as a team again.
Again something that's not possible in PUG groups.
And even with some new guildies.....

Consider a past event involving a new guildie.
He started to ask for help on a specific mission.
My first reaction: what is going wrong?
No solid reply.
So I asked: How do you think you can improve the team?
Again no solid reply.
So I asked: If you want me to help you, which profession should I take best?
Same silence.
He just had no clue about why he failed, how to improve and how I could be of best help.
I want to help other players but when you are about halfway a game and you don't have a clue what you are doing I'm not going to waste much time on you.
Specially not when you claim that you want to finish the game that same day....

That guildie was gone quick.
He got some help from me and others in the guild but in the end the only thing he seemed to want was for others to play his game.
I don't want to be responsible for such a player walking around in endgame content....

Wild Karrde · Jun 15, 2008, 06:03 PM // 18:03

to the OP.. Well stated I agree with 100% of your post

/signed

I read most of the replies on this... not all. specifically the last 10 or so pages, but one thing I would like to comment on is the people saying anet shouldnt cater to the veterans, using that as an excuse to make PvE ridiculously brainless.

There was NO guides or ursan or SY or TNTF or consumables when guild wars began... and Im willing to bet (because I wasnt here in the very beginning) that some PvE was hard (THK) and alot of people had to do it over and over. So PvE wasnt brainless or super easy, people had to develop their skill and experience to beat some areas. So why are people saying If Anet makes it like that again they are just catering to the veteran players? Because it will be easier for the Veterans to complete and harder for the newbies (this is not a derogatory term) to do?

Well thats how it was in the beginning.. Sure anet botched it themselves by not putting any effort into enemies in NF or gwen and just giving them alot of hp and energy and way overpowered skills. But none the less, PvE has now become brainless, and a grind fest.

Things being hard does not mean anet is rejecting the casual player and only catering to the veterans... it means theres some hard shit to do and some easy shit to do... If you want to do the hard stuff, attempt to get better. Dont just give the newbies builds they can run by rolling their face on a keyboard. e.g. (kinda bad but its the only one I could think of.) What if Xbox live made it easy for everyone to be good at any type of competitive play, the people who were actually good wouldnt like it and the people who were bad wouldnt know the difference, or get better. Here in lies one problem... newer players dont understand any mechanics cause they will just mimmick wiki or be a bear. Challenges keep things interesting and make you improve. lack there of makes a game get boring soon.

Now with the PvP/PvE split... anet has "balanced" fewer skills than before the split.. and with this last up date it shows they have no idea what they are doing.

They no longer have an excuse for not nerfing or buffing something in PvP because of PvE or vice versa... yet they continue to miss the point..

Their community relations is deplorable, and it shows.

Woo · Jun 15, 2008, 06:10 PM // 18:10

/signed.

- I enjoyed reading it.

wazz · Jun 15, 2008, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

depends on who is "We".

Imo, everyone playing GW.

I agree that it is hard to help the "newer" people as most of the time they refuse your help.
Heck, I'm on the same boat as you, I also don't feel like going into a discussion if I find someone is using a wrong skillcombination.
But that is min or less to core of the problem. We all had our fair amount of ****** in PUGs. We all tried to help them and got "spiked".

Problem is, if we don't help them who will ?
You seem to agree with me that wiki can be -wrong- at times.
I'm not gonne say I know everything better, and I understand someone will believe the wiki and not a wild stranger.
But the "wiki knows all" mentality has grown over time (well this might be not true, but I remember my "noob" days, those days people tended to explain more and redirect to wiki less then these days. This could also be only what I see, I have no numbers).
I'm fairly sure people used the wiki on a fair lower dose. People tended to play together more (and that way lissen to each other more).

-lissen to each other, help each other, learn from each other- was a mentality I played with those days, and a fair enough amount of people I met too. Nowadays ... (I don't PUG that much anymore, if I PUG it is the elite areas or HM point farm) I don't see that mentality anymore.

Re-installing that mentality would be a fair enough start.
Yeh it looks inpossible to me too. But it is the only way to get rid of the cookiecuttersbuilds, and in the long run mabye even PVE skills.

The level of "skill" between "ELITE"and "newer" people has become to big.
Helping each other would make the gap smaller.
If we destroy the reason why we have PVE skills, we might get them removed in the long run.
I know the chance this all turns out this way is nihil, but at best we can learn out of OUR mistakes for GW2 .
Anet is trying to please everyone and will always continue to please everyone.
We can't blame them for it. We can blame ourselfs for it though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

But it didn't do it the way that veterans wanted.

Veterans wanted smarter mobs. Mobs with smater skillsets (and secondaries). Random spawns. Puzzle-like patrolls.

Not imba buffed mobs.

If it was done the smart way, everyone could stand chance as they could set foothold in area without wiping on first mob.

What you say looks like a chalenge to me.
And it would be fun to do that with a group of people but... I have to disagree everyone would have a good enough chance.

It would require people to coordinate.
Imo, it would only work for guild/allaince/friends groups.
IMO PUGs would fail even more.
People would be doing the opposit of each other as they don't know what the other people are gonne do.
If you know how mobs gonne react, you can plan out a strategy before it happens (mostly done at chokepoints, like the cave thing in gloom and etc) , if you don't... then it gonne be a mess.
If something "random" happens at a choke point, it mostly results in a party wipe with a PUG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

So its not fun for newbies to listen to some random bossy person either.

I agree, and I'm not asking for people to go bossy in PUGs even more.
But I'm asking to help people out.

If a guildie QQ's on gc that he got himself killed at gate of madness, don't redirect him to wiki, but warp to the gate of madness and join his group, mabye even guide him trough the entire mission.

If you see someone complaining in an outpost that he just can't complete some quest, join his PUG and help him. Don't redirect him to wiki.

The times i help someone out (witch are almost none excisting. Again I'm not any beter then anyone. I'm part of the problem) I tend to ask why he has a certain skill on his bar and then suggest an alternative.

For instance (just making this one up):
Why did you put mending on Koss ?
"the other guys answer"
Hmm well I dunno if that is gonne work.
I would use mending refrain.
(err tons of emoticons used along the way. It seems the more emoticons used, the less "attacked" someone feels.)
"the other guys answer"
Then I either continue to explain why I would take mending refrain (for instance koss is using WY and he could keep mending refrain up on himself and other people in the party and etc.)
Or I drop the subject.

And I agree with you zwei2stein, going bossy and saying; "OMGOSH KOSS USING MENDING LMAO WAMMO" (and some typos along the way)
Isn't gonne help anyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoTTeN

Would it require more skill / gameplay knowledge ? Yes, of course it would, but then again no one is holding anyone back to learn to play better in PvE.

None is "teaching" anymore. They have to learn it themselves (by trail and error) or use wiki.

They gonne use wiki. And you can't really blame them for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

They could've made the Normal modes of the elite areas easier. This would not only provide them access to the area but to prepare them for the real deal in Hard Mode. The fact that they made HM easier shows that their not catering to the "woeful pugger" but more to an annoying, whiny, "gimme it nao" crowd.

Personally I think if they would have made the normal modes of elite areas easier, people would complain it is to easy
or
that the "balance" (there is a beter word for it but can't come up with it) between drops in NM and HM and the toughness of NM and HM wouldn't be "balanced enough".

And if they would "balance" it out to a "fair" level, everyone would go for HM.

Look at the deep. None did it on NM, everyone did it on HM. Better drops !! (and it was easy enough).

DreamWind · Jun 15, 2008, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Something should be made clear. This thread is not about the majority and minority. This thread is not about veterans and newbies. This thread is not about casual players and hardcore players. I don't know why people keep bringing it up.

This thread is about the depth of Guild Wars turning to crap and Anet not communicating with the players, and I honestly don't know how anybody who has played this game for any amount of time can argue those points.

Red Sonya · Jun 15, 2008, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Well DreamWind it's because DEPTH has an INDIVIDUAL perception as well. Each person has their own perceptions and I myself don't see any issues with depth of the game when I do play the boring PVE (only because I've played it so much already) it's not depth that is boring cause challenge is still there. Fact of the matter is some places have already improved with challenge after these last updates to PVE. I've never reached a point where I find the game is no longer challenging because I don't use UB or SYS when I play and I just find groups that don't want to use it or maybe only 1 or 2 people want to there's no arguing so that it's fun for everyone. For me it's not how HARD it is to do something in the game, but, that I am SHARING my TIME and EXPERIENCES with others while playing the mission or whatever. Far too many people forget to just have fun an enjoy the ride. So, the depth is still there for most of us, just the handful that wants everyone to play their way instead of the way the game IS NOW INTENDED to be played.

manitoba1073 · Jun 15, 2008, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

If it wasn't for the optional grind in the game, enhancing the power of these skills we wouldn't be having this problem. Tell me, in what online game will people not use the higher ranks of a title that enhances a skill to their advantage? Not even me or anyone else. Why? Because you want the best of the best.

The players decide on what they want in their groups, but you could actually find people who didn't run Ursan and will accept a balanced gameplay then.

I would rather have trinityway, as there are enough variables for it, PvE skills or not. At least that build is around many skills and not 9.

And stop with the DLDU stuff. It ruins the thread further.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Hold it right there. Yes that argument was thrashed. Continue thread.

No it wasnt. As Ive said noone is holding a gun to your heads. Well if they arer then you have other serious problems. You have a choice and option to use or not use it. Yes the truth always ruins threads around here.

As far as HT builds you are more than welcome to use whatever the hell you want once again you have the choice. Ofcourse players want whats best to use, but it also doesnt mean that they will use or not try and use other stuff. Once again brings us right back to the ability to have to the options to do what ever they want to do.

Tyla · Jun 15, 2008, 08:03 PM // 20:03

You are being restricted from play by a particular part of the community over a skill which is enhanced over rank. You have no choice at all if you wish to PuG.

kostolomac · Jun 15, 2008, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

This thread is about the depth of Guild Wars turning to crap and Anet not communicating with the players, and I honestly don't know how anybody who has played this game for any amount of time can argue those points.

Let me explain depth in avarre's pool analogy. ANET didn't make the pool more shallow than have you grown out of it. Maybe the depth for you is gone , but for many other players it's still here , like me, i still find depth in the game. You want ANET to change the game according to some very subjective wishes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I would rather have trinityway

So , 5 professions (I never saw a team build that requires more than 5 different classes) will do elite areas , while the other 5 play with marbles in the outpost waiting ANET do change some skills so that the team build changes , hopefully allowing some other class be in the team. Very nice , very very nice of you.

zwei2stein · Jun 15, 2008, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

What you say looks like a chalenge to me.
And it would be fun to do that with a group of people but... I have to disagree everyone would have a good enough chance.

It would require people to coordinate.
Imo, it would only work for guild/allaince/friends groups.
IMO PUGs would fail even more.
People would be doing the opposit of each other as they don't know what the other people are gonne do.
If you know how mobs gonne react, you can plan out a strategy before it happens (mostly done at chokepoints, like the cave thing in gloom and etc) , if you don't... then it gonne be a mess.
If something "random" happens at a choke point, it mostly results in a party wipe with a PUG.

I dont think so.

See, newbies suffer a lot in elite areas: DoA is bacronymed as Death On Arrival for reason.

It is because mobs to inhuman levels of damage. And is inhumally resistant to damage too. Result is that life expectation of caster upon agroing is in seconds. Squish! Wipe and retry.

Now, what happens if mobs are "smartened". They now do something akin to normal damage. Life expectation of party members is increased dramatically.

They are now given time to attune with rest of party. Time to react and act.

Now, mobs are not as hard on first sight, as conditions, hexes and all kinds of pressure take time to act. Becuase mobs now kill trought pressure.

Let party face 4 of improved mosnters at entrance to area ... party wins, ofc. Bolstering their confidence providing positive feedback ... Next group is harder, more monsters. We have just added learning curve to elite mission. Players now can have at least some feedback, except "were dead".

Eventually party will reach groups it can't handle yet. Important part is that that group is not first one party meets.

Randomness strenghtens this as there wont be gimmick to kill group A, B, C ... no cookie to bake. Players simply must learn.

Don't overestimate randomness effect on dificulty! Its is mostly something to kill gimmickness and keep people awake. I am confident that if something becomes FUBAR in mission, random mosnter spawn would be last thing to blame.

Say, that cave example: would it be any different if margnotie groups were comming? No. Party would still need to excercise similar amount of coordination, produce same kind of protection and offense. Party would still need to coordinate attacks. It will be very different gameplay experience but challenge would remain similar.